Spending time with the divine and ordered - part four
A conversation with ChatGPT about a the importance of understanding what a human being is and where we fit in
Jannik: The ascent we have been talking about through the internal perspective (internal consistency) up towards the external perspective (a fuller understanding of what a human being is and how we fit into the universe) seems to be treated head on in this quote from Seneca:
"What a despicable thing a human being is if he does not rise above human affairs! All the time that we are struggling with our passions, what is so wonderful about our achievement, even if we prevail? We are outdoing monsters: why should we be conceited because we are not as bad as the worst people? I cannot see why anyone who is more robust than the others in a hospital should be pleased with himself: strength is quite different from good health. Have you broken free from moral vices? Your face does not have a feigned expression, your speech is not designed to please somebody else, nor are your feelings concealed, nor do you harbor greed, which denies itself what it has taken from others, nor luxury, which squanders money shamefully only to recoup it even more shamefully, nor ambition, which will bring you honors only by dishonorable means? You have not yet achieved anything: you have broken free from many things, but not yet from yourself. The virtue to which we aspire is marvelous not because freedom from evil is in itself wonderful, but because it releases the mind, prepares it for knowledge of the celestial, and makes it worthy to enter into partnership with god."
- Seneca, Naturales quaestiones Book I, praefatio 1-7
ChatGPT 4.0: The quote from Seneca indeed addresses the ascent from the internal perspective (internal consistency) to the external perspective (understanding one's place in the universe), which we have been discussing.
In this passage, Seneca emphasizes the importance of transcending human affairs and breaking free from moral vices, not merely to overcome the worst aspects of human nature, but to elevate the mind and prepare it for a deeper understanding of the cosmos. By doing so, an individual becomes worthy of entering into partnership with the divine.
Seneca's reference to breaking free from oneself highlights the idea that merely overcoming vices and external obstacles is not sufficient for achieving true wisdom and virtue. Instead, individuals must cultivate self-awareness and introspection to better understand themselves and their place in the universe.
The passage also draws attention to the aspirational nature of virtue, emphasizing that the pursuit of wisdom is a continuous process. The ultimate goal is not simply to be free from evil but to attain a state of mind that enables a deeper understanding of the celestial realm and a connection with the divine.
This quote from Seneca aligns with the ascent we have discussed in the context of Plato's philosophy and the Stoic concept of homologia. Both philosophical systems emphasize the importance of internal growth and reflection as a means of progressing toward a deeper understanding of the divine order and achieving harmony with it. By transcending human affairs and cultivating self-awareness, individuals can better understand their place in the universe and align themselves with the divine order that permeates the cosmos.
Jannik: So if we broadly define the external perspective as a deeper understanding of what a human being is and of how human beings fit into the greater scheme of things how do you think an external perspective like this can benefit modern human beings - who don't necessarily see a divine order in cosmos?
ChatGPT: Even for modern individuals who may not perceive a divine order in the cosmos, an external perspective that seeks a deeper understanding of what it means to be human and how humans fit into the larger scheme of things can still be beneficial in several ways:
1. Environmental awareness: By adopting an external perspective that considers our relationship to the natural world, individuals can become more conscious of their impact on the environment and make informed choices to promote sustainability and ecological balance.
2. Empathy and compassion: Developing a broader understanding of human interconnectedness can foster empathy and compassion towards others, promoting tolerance and appreciation for diverse cultures, beliefs, and experiences.
3. Sense of purpose: Contemplating one's place in the universe can help individuals find a sense of purpose and meaning in their lives, even if it is not anchored in a belief in a divine order. This can provide motivation and direction in the pursuit of personal growth and fulfillment.
4. Perspective and resilience: An external perspective can help individuals cultivate a broader viewpoint, allowing them to put personal challenges and setbacks into a wider context. This can foster resilience and a greater ability to cope with adversity.
5. Personal growth and self-awareness: The pursuit of an external perspective can lead to a deeper understanding of oneself and one's values, which can contribute to personal growth, self-awareness, and ultimately, a more fulfilling life.
In summary, even without a belief in a divine order, adopting an external perspective that seeks to understand human beings' place in the greater scheme of things can provide numerous benefits, such as increased environmental awareness, empathy, a sense of purpose, resilience, and personal growth.
Jannik: I agree wholeheartedly - and it's worth remembering that even Epicurus and Lucretius who were largely contemporary with Plato and the Stoics and who did not see a divine order in cosmos were very adamant about the value of the external perspective. Epicurus' massive work "On nature" was written to help us reach the external perspective - as were Lucretius' beautiful versified treatment of the same theme.
ChatGPT: Yes, that's an excellent point. Epicurus and Lucretius, despite their differing views on the existence of a divine order in the cosmos, also recognized the value of adopting an external perspective to better understand the world and humanity's place in it.
Epicurus, in his work "On Nature," aimed to provide a naturalistic explanation of the universe and its phenomena, seeking to replace fear and superstition with rational understanding. He believed that by gaining a deeper comprehension of the natural world, individuals could alleviate anxiety and achieve a state of tranquility known as ataraxia.
Lucretius, in his epic poem "De Rerum Natura" (On the Nature of Things), expands upon Epicurean philosophy and seeks to explain the universe through the principles of atomism. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the natural world and its laws in order to liberate oneself from irrational fears and attain peace of mind.
Both Epicurus and Lucretius demonstrate the value of the external perspective in cultivating a rational understanding of the world and fostering personal well-being, even in the absence of a belief in a divine order. Their works highlight the enduring relevance of an external perspective that seeks to understand the human condition and our place in the universe, transcending the specific metaphysical beliefs of any particular philosophical system.
Jannik: Thinking more about this, I think it could be argued that we always have some version of the external perspective and that our internal perspective (our goals, preferences and values) is to a very large extent shaped by how we think of the universe, nature and human nature. The ascent Plato and Seneca describe is perhaps better described as ascent from a crude, badly thought out worldview to a sophisticated well-founded one. What do you think?
ChatGPT: I agree that the distinction between the internal and external perspectives is not as clear-cut as it might initially seem. Our internal perspective, which encompasses our goals, preferences, and values, is indeed influenced by our understanding of the universe, nature, and human nature. In this sense, our worldview, whether crude or sophisticated, can significantly impact our internal perspective.
The ascent described by Plato and Seneca can indeed be seen as a journey from a less developed, poorly articulated worldview to a more refined, well-founded one. As individuals progress in their understanding of the universe and their place within it, their internal perspective evolves as well.
This process of growth and refinement can lead to greater self-awareness, personal fulfillment, and harmony with the world around us. In this context, the ascent is not just about acquiring a more profound understanding of the cosmos, but also about cultivating a more enlightened and harmonious internal perspective that reflects this understanding.
So, the distinction between the internal and external perspectives is not as rigid as it may appear. Both perspectives are interconnected, with each influencing and being influenced by the other. The ascent can be seen as a continuous process of refining one's worldview, leading to a more coherent, well-founded understanding of both the self and the universe.
Jannik: Very well said :-) I agree entirely!
ChatGPT: I'm glad we're on the same page! It's been a pleasure discussing these philosophical ideas with you. If you have any more questions or topics you'd like to explore, feel free to ask.
Part one
https://janniklindquist.substack.com/p/spending-our-time-with-the-divine
Part two
https://janniklindquist.substack.com/p/spending-our-time-with-the-divine-a57
Part three
https://janniklindquist.substack.com/p/spending-our-time-with-the-divine-01e