Spending our time with the divine and ordered - part three
A conversation with ChatGPT about the importance of understanding what a human being is and where we fit in
Jannik: Perhaps it makes sense to say that the progress through the internal perspective we have been talking about (consistency in wishes) towards the external perspective (understanding where one fits in the universe) matches the acsent from the cave up to the sunlit surface in Plato's Republic.
ChatGPT 4.0: Yes, it is a fitting analogy to compare the progress from the internal perspective (consistency in wishes) to the external perspective (understanding one's place in the universe) with the ascent from the cave to the sunlit surface in Plato's Allegory of the Cave from the Republic.
In the Allegory of the Cave, Plato describes prisoners who are chained inside a cave, only able to see shadows on the wall, which they believe to be reality. Eventually, one of the prisoners is freed and ascends to the surface, where they encounter the sunlight and the true reality of the world outside the cave. This ascent symbolizes the philosopher's journey from the world of illusion and ignorance to the world of true knowledge and understanding.
The progression from the internal to the external perspective in both Plato's philosophy and Stoicism can be likened to this ascent from the cave. Initially, individuals may focus on cultivating internal consistency in their desires and beliefs, developing self-awareness and self-mastery. This process can be seen as the first step in the philosophical journey, akin to becoming aware of the limitations of the cave and the shadows on the wall.
As individuals develop their understanding of themselves and their own nature, they become more attuned to the broader context of the universe and their place within it. This shift towards the external perspective is like the ascent from the cave to the sunlit surface, where individuals encounter the true reality of the natural world and the divine order that governs it.
By moving from the internal to the external perspective, individuals gain a more comprehensive understanding of themselves, the world around them, and the divine harmony that permeates the cosmos. This progression mirrors the journey of the philosopher in Plato's Allegory of the Cave, as they ascend from ignorance to knowledge, ultimately striving to live in harmony with the divine order.
Jannik: So perhaps the concept of the philosopher intuiting the Idea of the Good is actually just a metaphor for the philosopher learning from studying the workings of the natural world?
ChatGPT: It is possible to interpret the philosopher's intuition of the Idea of the Good in Plato's philosophy as a metaphor for learning from studying the workings of the natural world. However, it is important to note that this interpretation may not fully capture the depth and complexity of Plato's metaphysics and epistemology.
In Plato's philosophy, the Idea of the Good is the highest and most perfect Form, which transcends and orders all other Forms. The philosopher's task is to apprehend this ultimate reality through dialectical inquiry and contemplation. While the study of the natural world can certainly contribute to an understanding of the divine order, Plato's emphasis is on transcending the physical world to access the eternal and unchangeable realm of Forms.
That said, it is not unreasonable to consider the philosopher's intuition of the Idea of the Good as a metaphor for the process of learning from the natural world, especially in the context of comparing Plato's philosophy with Stoicism. The Stoics emphasize the importance of understanding the natural order as a path to aligning one's life with the divine principle, the Logos.
In this sense, the metaphorical interpretation of intuiting the Idea of the Good as learning from the natural world can be seen as a bridge between Plato's and the Stoics' approaches to achieving harmony with the divine. Both systems share the common goal of understanding and aligning with the divine order, even if the specific means and metaphysical foundations differ.
In summary, interpreting the philosopher's intuition of the Idea of the Good as a metaphor for learning from the natural world can offer a point of connection between Plato's philosophy and Stoicism, highlighting the shared goal of living in harmony with the divine order. However, it is important to recognize that this interpretation may not fully account for the intricacies of Plato's metaphysics and epistemology.
Jannik: I fully acknowledge that but even if we just focus on Plato the question remains what the exact relation is between the philosopher in the Republic who grasp the Idea of the Good and the wise man in Timaeus who models himself after the divine order in the natural world. Don't you agree?
ChatGPT: Yes, I agree that the question of the exact relationship between the philosopher in the Republic who grasps the Idea of the Good and the wise man in Timaeus who models himself after the divine order in the natural world is an interesting and important one within the context of Plato's philosophy.
In the Republic, the philosopher's ultimate goal is to apprehend the Idea of the Good, the highest and most perfect Form that transcends and orders all other Forms. By contemplating and understanding the Idea of the Good, the philosopher can achieve a deep understanding of the eternal and unchangeable reality that underlies the changing world of appearances.
In Timaeus, the wise man seeks to understand the divine order of the natural world, which has been crafted by the Demiurge according to the eternal and perfect Forms. By observing and contemplating the harmony of the cosmos, the wise man can align his thoughts and actions with the divine order, thus achieving a state of harmony with the divine.
While these two conceptions of the philosopher or wise man may initially seem distinct, they share a common goal of understanding and aligning with the divine order. Both the Idea of the Good in the Republic and the divine order in Timaeus represent the ultimate reality that the philosopher or wise man seeks to understand and emulate.
In both cases, the philosopher or wise man uses reason and contemplation to access this divine order, whether it is the eternal realm of Forms or the harmony of the natural world. By grasping this divine order, the philosopher or wise man can achieve a state of harmony with the divine, living in accordance with the ultimate reality that governs the universe.
So, while the specific focus and metaphysical foundations of the philosopher in the Republic and the wise man in Timaeus may differ, they share a common goal of understanding and living in harmony with the divine order. This shared pursuit highlights the interconnected nature of Plato's thought and the overarching theme of striving for harmony with the divine that pervades his philosophy.
Actually, we don't have to go to Timaeus to find Plato speaking of the natural world. He is almost certainly talking about the planets in this quote:
"‘if someone truly has his mind on things as they really are, he will not have time to look down at the preoccupations of mere mortals and fight with them, filling himself full of malice and ill-will. Instead, as he turns his eyes towards an ordered array of things that forever remain the same, and observes these maintaining their harmony and rationality in everything, and neither behaving unjustly nor being treated unjustly by each other, he will imitate these and model himself after them so far as he can. Or do you think anyone can avoid imitating a thing he spends his time with, and in awe of?’
‘He can’t,’ said Adimantus.
‘So if the philosopher spends his time with the divine and ordered, he’ll achieve such order and divinity as is possible for man'".
- Socrates in Plato's Republic, 500b-d