Spending our time with the divine and ordered - part one
A conversation with ChatGPT about a the importance of understanding what a human being is and where we fit in
Here is a quote from Plato's Republic:
"‘if someone truly has his mind on things as they really are, he will not have time to look down at the preoccupations of mere mortals and fight with them, filling himself full of malice and ill-will. Instead, as he turns his eyes towards an ordered array of things that forever remain the same, and observes these maintaining their harmony and rationality in everything, and neither behaving unjustly nor being treated unjustly by each other, he will imitate these and model himself after them so far as he can. Or do you think anyone can avoid imitating a thing he spends his time with, and in awe of?’
‘He can’t,’ said Adimantus.
‘So if the philosopher spends his time with the divine and ordered, he’ll achieve such order and divinity as is possible for man'".
- Socrates in Plato's Republic, 500b-d.
Do you agree that the idea of "modeling" which is seen in this quote is very similar to the Stoic idea of homologia - living in agreement?
ChatGPT 4.0: Yes, there is indeed a similarity between the idea of "modeling" as presented in the passage from Plato's Republic and the Stoic concept of homologia or living in agreement with the divine order. Both philosophical systems advocate for the alignment of one's life with a higher, divine standard, which leads to a more fulfilling and meaningful existence.
In the passage from the Republic, Socrates suggests that by focusing on the divine and ordered aspects of reality, a philosopher can imitate these qualities and incorporate them into their own life. This act of "modeling" oneself after the divine order aims to bring about a state of harmony and divinity in the individual, insofar as it is possible for a human being.
Similarly, the Stoic idea of homologia refers to living in agreement with the divine order and rationality inherent in nature. By understanding and following the Logos, the divine rational principle that governs the universe, one can align their actions and thoughts with this order, resulting in a life that is more in accordance with their true nature.
Both Plato and the Stoics emphasize the importance of cultivating virtues and wisdom in order to achieve this alignment. The practice of philosophy and self-reflection are key components in both systems, as they help individuals gain a deeper understanding of the divine order and develop the necessary virtues to live in harmony with it.
While there are differences in their metaphysical views and the specific paths they propose to achieve this harmony, the underlying idea of modeling oneself after a divine standard and living in agreement with the natural order is a common theme shared by both Plato and the Stoics.
Jannik: Do you also agree that Plato's Republic can be seen as an analysis of human happiness from an "inside" - phenomenological - perspective whereas Timaos can be seen as an analysis of human happiness from an outside - cosmological - perspective? In Republic Plato has Socrates compare a life of reason and a life of desire "from the inside", so to speak, whereas in Timaos a cosmological explanation of human anthropology is given.
ChatGPT: Yes, it is reasonable to suggest that Plato's Republic and Timaeus offer different perspectives on human happiness, with the former focusing on the phenomenological or "inside" aspect, and the latter examining the cosmological or "outside" aspect.
In the Republic, Plato's primary concern is to investigate the nature of justice and the just life. The dialogue explores the concept of the ideal state, as well as the virtues that characterize a just individual. Throughout the dialogue, Socrates and his interlocutors discuss different types of lives, including those driven by reason, desire, or honor, and compare their potential for happiness. This comparison is primarily conducted from the "inside" or phenomenological perspective, focusing on the individual's subjective experience and understanding of the world.
In Timaeus, Plato shifts his focus to a more cosmological view, providing an account of the creation of the universe, the nature of the cosmos, and the role of human beings within this grand scheme. The dialogue presents a detailed description of the Demiurge, the divine craftsman who creates the world in accordance with the eternal and perfect Forms. Human anthropology is also discussed within the context of the cosmos, including the composition of the human soul and its connection to the divine order.
The perspective in Timaeus is more "outside" or cosmological, as it offers an explanation of the structure and nature of the universe, and human beings' place within it. In this context, human happiness is considered in relation to the cosmic order and the harmony of the universe, rather than solely through individual subjective experience.
In summary, the Republic and Timaeus can be seen as complementary works, examining human happiness from different perspectives. While the Republic delves into the phenomenological aspect, considering happiness from the individual's subjective experience and the pursuit of a just life, Timaeus provides a broader cosmological context, exploring the relationship between human beings, the universe, and the divine order.
Jannik: This distinction between an internal and an external analysis of human happiness seems to correspond to two different versions of the Stoic concept of homologia. According to some sources Zeno only talked about "living in agreement". The part about nature was added later so the dictum became "living in agreement with nature". And in his letter no. 20 Seneca talks about defining wisdom entirely without reference to anything other than internal consistency of wishes:
"Let me then set aside the old definitions of wisdom and give you one that takes in a whole method of human existence. Here's one I can be content with. What is wisdom? Always wanting the same thing, always rejecting the same thing. You do not even have to add the proviso that what you want should be right: only for the right can one have a consistent wish.”
ChatGPT: It is true that the Stoic concept of homologia evolved over time, with the early formulation by Zeno focusing on "living in agreement," while later Stoics, such as Chrysippus and Epictetus, emphasized "living in agreement with nature." The distinction between these two versions can be seen as parallel to the distinction between the internal and external analyses of human happiness in Plato's works.
In the earlier version of homologia, the emphasis is on achieving internal consistency and coherence in one's beliefs, desires, and actions. This version aligns with the quote from Seneca's letter, where wisdom is defined as "always wanting the same thing, always rejecting the same thing." This internal consistency ensures that an individual's wishes and actions are guided by reason and wisdom, without necessarily referring to an external standard or order.
The later version of homologia, which adds the element of "living in agreement with nature," introduces a more external, cosmological aspect to the concept. This version suggests that individuals should not only strive for internal consistency but also align their actions and desires with the natural order of the universe. The Stoics believed that this natural order is governed by the Logos, the divine rational principle, and by living in accordance with nature, one is essentially living in harmony with the Logos.
The development of the Stoic concept of homologia from a focus on internal consistency to an emphasis on living in agreement with nature reflects the evolution and expansion of Stoic thought. However, it is important to note that these two versions are not mutually exclusive; rather, they complement each other. The pursuit of internal consistency and coherence is still essential in achieving the more comprehensive goal of living in harmony with the natural order.
In conclusion, the distinction between the internal and external analyses of human happiness in Plato's Republic and Timaeus can be seen as analogous to the two different versions of the Stoic concept of homologia. Both philosophical systems explore the nature of human happiness and flourishing from complementary perspectives, integrating both internal and external elements into their understanding of the ideal way of life.
Jannik: I certainly agree that the internal and the external perspectives complement each other. In Seneca's opinion the internal perspective will naturally lead to the external perspective - and most people do in fact seem to rely on some conception of nature and the universe and on some idea about which role human beings play in that larger whole.
ChatGPT: You are right in observing that the internal and external perspectives on human happiness and flourishing are interconnected and complementary. As Seneca suggests, the pursuit of internal consistency and coherence can naturally lead to an awareness of the external context, which includes nature, the universe, and the role of human beings within it.
For the Stoics, the process of cultivating wisdom, reason, and internal consistency in one's beliefs, desires, and actions can help individuals gain a deeper understanding of the natural order and their place in it. As individuals develop their rational faculties and learn to live in agreement, they become more attuned to the larger context of the universe and the principles governing it.
This interconnectedness of the internal and external perspectives is also present in Plato's philosophy. For instance, in the Republic, the philosopher's journey towards understanding the eternal and unchangeable Forms has implications not only for their internal state and subjective experience but also for their understanding of the external world and the divine order that permeates it.
Similarly, in Timaeus, the cosmological perspective on the creation and structure of the universe is linked to the composition of the human soul and its connection to the divine. By understanding the external context and the relationship between the human soul and the cosmos, individuals can better align their internal state and actions with the divine order.
In conclusion, both Plato and the Stoics recognize the interconnectedness and complementarity of the internal and external perspectives on human happiness and flourishing. The pursuit of internal consistency, wisdom, and virtue can lead to a deeper understanding of the natural order and the role of human beings within the larger context of the universe. This integration of the internal and external dimensions contributes to a more comprehensive and holistic view of the ideal way of life.
I have a hypothesis that ChatGPT usually responds with "Yes, you are right" rather than "No, that's wrong." To test this I tried the following:
Here is a quote from Plato's Republic:
"‘if someone truly has his mind on things as they really are, he will not have time to look down at the preoccupations of mere mortals and fight with them, filling himself full of malice and ill-will. Instead, as he turns his eyes towards an ordered array of things that forever remain the same, and observes these maintaining their harmony and rationality in everything, and neither behaving unjustly nor being treated unjustly by each other, he will imitate these and model himself after them so far as he can. Or do you think anyone can avoid imitating a thing he spends his time with, and in awe of?’
‘He can’t,’ said Adimantus.
‘So if the philosopher spends his time with the divine and ordered, he’ll achieve such order and divinity as is possible for man'".
- Socrates in Plato's Republic, 500b-d.
Do you agree that the idea of "modeling" which is seen in this quote is fundamentally different from the Stoic idea of homologia - living in agreement?
The idea of "modeling" in the quote from Plato's Republic and the Stoic concept of homologia (living in agreement) do have similarities, but they also possess some key differences. Let's first break down the key components of each concept to better understand their respective nuances.
In the quote from Plato's Republic, Socrates is discussing the idea of modeling oneself after the divine and ordered. According to Socrates, if a person contemplates and appreciates the beauty of the eternal, unchanging, and rational aspects of the universe, they will imitate these qualities and incorporate them into their own lives. The focus here is on achieving personal growth and self-improvement by emulating the divine and ordered aspects of reality.
On the other hand, the Stoic concept of homologia refers to living in agreement with nature or the rational order of the universe. Stoics believe that a person should strive to align their thoughts and actions with the natural world and the universal reason, or logos, that governs it. Homologia involves understanding the interconnectedness of all things and recognizing that everything occurs for a reason. The focus is on accepting the natural order and finding harmony within it.
While both concepts share an emphasis on aligning oneself with a higher order or rationality, there are key differences:
Focus: Plato's modeling concept is primarily concerned with personal growth and self-improvement by emulating the divine and ordered aspects of reality. In contrast, the Stoic idea of homologia is more about accepting and harmonizing with the natural order of the universe, recognizing the interconnectedness of all things.
Approach: Plato's modeling involves a more active process of imitation, where the individual seeks to embody the qualities of the divine and ordered. In contrast, homologia requires a more passive acceptance of the natural order, acknowledging that everything happens for a reason and finding harmony within it.
Goal: While both concepts aim to improve the individual's life, the ultimate goals differ. In Plato's modeling, the objective is to become as divine and ordered as possible, whereas in Stoicism, the goal is to achieve inner peace and tranquility through living in agreement with nature.
In conclusion, while there are similarities between the idea of "modeling" from Plato's Republic and the Stoic concept of homologia, they are fundamentally different in terms of focus, approach, and ultimate goals.
Part two of this conversation is here:
https://janniklindquist.substack.com/p/spending-our-time-with-the-divine-a57?sd=pf
And here is a post from last year which is also highly relevant:
https://janniklindquist.substack.com/p/the-life-of-reason/comments