This is a good post. While I did have part of On clemency in mind I was also trying to pick on threads that i think underpin a range of Stoic writings, It will be two months till I get back to my Stoic library.
“but a true Stoic will feel a commitment to ease the sorrow of someone who has lost a dear one but no commitment whatsoever to share their understanding of how serious that loss is. What do you think?”
I don’t know that I disagree here. To my thinking though, that motivation to do ones duty(specific or general) to be virtuous will require/ can’t psychologically get away from initial empathy, I think its almost a proto-emotion a result of mirror neurons. Of course the cognitive/rational focus can then be applied to this. But I think that a rational empathy(really should define this) is essential in trying to lead others to the seemingly harsher Stoic endpoint.
“Yes, I think that is exactly the case. And I think it is the wrong way to go. Our modern insistence on the objective value of empathy keeps us trapped in a flawed understanding of what is truly good, bad and indifferent - and this has deep implications both for the person striving to have empathy and for the person who are facing challenges.”
When I am talking about empathy I am chiefly thinking and this could be peculiar to me, of
Cognitive Empathy: The ability to understand another person's mental state and what they might be thinking, and how I might help them, if they want help etc. I think this type of Empathy is important in building Social Connection and or pro social behaviour, just basic understanding.
Some of the key themes I see across a range of stoics are:
Universal Kinship: All people share a rational nature (*logos*), demanding mutual respect and understanding. Duty Over Emotion: Empathy is a rational choice, not sentimentality.
Understanding Ignorance: Wrongdoing stems from error, not evil—respond with education, not anger. Active Benevolence: Helping others aligns with nature; indifference is a vice.
But some nuances: Seneca**: Blends Stoicism with a more emotive, pragmatic tone (e.g., consoling the bereaved) Musonius Rufus: Focuses on daily practice (e.g., hospitality, fairness) as expressions of empathy. Hierocles: Offers a structured framework for expanding empathy beyond tribal loyalties.
Though Stoic "empathy" lacks modern emotional resonance(and I think this is good in the general sense), these thinkers advocate for a disciplined, rational care for others—rooted in the belief that virtue lies in serving humanity.
I am dying. I have at worst about 2 years. I really do think that Virtue/Aretē is the only point. But I am/was also a professional educator which requires a fair degree of cognitive empathy and probably ands a certain bias to my writing. This may be my peculiar take. I hope i have expanded sufficiently. Thanks for the well considered post, it truly got me thinking.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, my friend. The hardship that you yourself is facing is a powerful challenge for the views I have expressed on empathy. I am obviously moved by your predicament and I would obviously wish that you were not in it and that you could live and thrive for many more years - but your strength and clarity in the face of such a massive challenge is deeply inspiring and, to me, confirms the Stoic understanding of value.
Not a worry. I am at peace with it ( Mostly, most of the time 😁). We all have but one moment. Trying to be virtuous in that moment has truly given me focus. Everything else falls away.
Great comment! I hypothesize that empathy arose before reason evolutionarily as a means of social cohesion, and so an immediate feeling of empathy is perhaps the natural response when facing such situations. Even fundamentally, reasoning that virtue lies in serving humanity has to evolve from empathy for other humans—recognition that what it means to be them is perhaps very similar to what it means to be me, and therefore their suffering must feel an awful lot like mine. Take care my friend—I wish you the very best. As Seneca one said, it is the quality and not the quantity of life that truly matters.
A lot of these points are validated by Paul Bloom in his book “Against Empathy.” As ChatGPT points out, sentimentality makes us act in irrational ways when we’re trying to act benevolently when reason would actually serve better.
Absolutely agree 💯.
Thank you, dear Denise ☺️
This is a good post. While I did have part of On clemency in mind I was also trying to pick on threads that i think underpin a range of Stoic writings, It will be two months till I get back to my Stoic library.
“but a true Stoic will feel a commitment to ease the sorrow of someone who has lost a dear one but no commitment whatsoever to share their understanding of how serious that loss is. What do you think?”
I don’t know that I disagree here. To my thinking though, that motivation to do ones duty(specific or general) to be virtuous will require/ can’t psychologically get away from initial empathy, I think its almost a proto-emotion a result of mirror neurons. Of course the cognitive/rational focus can then be applied to this. But I think that a rational empathy(really should define this) is essential in trying to lead others to the seemingly harsher Stoic endpoint.
“Yes, I think that is exactly the case. And I think it is the wrong way to go. Our modern insistence on the objective value of empathy keeps us trapped in a flawed understanding of what is truly good, bad and indifferent - and this has deep implications both for the person striving to have empathy and for the person who are facing challenges.”
When I am talking about empathy I am chiefly thinking and this could be peculiar to me, of
Cognitive Empathy: The ability to understand another person's mental state and what they might be thinking, and how I might help them, if they want help etc. I think this type of Empathy is important in building Social Connection and or pro social behaviour, just basic understanding.
Some of the key themes I see across a range of stoics are:
Universal Kinship: All people share a rational nature (*logos*), demanding mutual respect and understanding. Duty Over Emotion: Empathy is a rational choice, not sentimentality.
Understanding Ignorance: Wrongdoing stems from error, not evil—respond with education, not anger. Active Benevolence: Helping others aligns with nature; indifference is a vice.
But some nuances: Seneca**: Blends Stoicism with a more emotive, pragmatic tone (e.g., consoling the bereaved) Musonius Rufus: Focuses on daily practice (e.g., hospitality, fairness) as expressions of empathy. Hierocles: Offers a structured framework for expanding empathy beyond tribal loyalties.
Though Stoic "empathy" lacks modern emotional resonance(and I think this is good in the general sense), these thinkers advocate for a disciplined, rational care for others—rooted in the belief that virtue lies in serving humanity.
I am dying. I have at worst about 2 years. I really do think that Virtue/Aretē is the only point. But I am/was also a professional educator which requires a fair degree of cognitive empathy and probably ands a certain bias to my writing. This may be my peculiar take. I hope i have expanded sufficiently. Thanks for the well considered post, it truly got me thinking.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, my friend. The hardship that you yourself is facing is a powerful challenge for the views I have expressed on empathy. I am obviously moved by your predicament and I would obviously wish that you were not in it and that you could live and thrive for many more years - but your strength and clarity in the face of such a massive challenge is deeply inspiring and, to me, confirms the Stoic understanding of value.
Not a worry. I am at peace with it ( Mostly, most of the time 😁). We all have but one moment. Trying to be virtuous in that moment has truly given me focus. Everything else falls away.
Great comment! I hypothesize that empathy arose before reason evolutionarily as a means of social cohesion, and so an immediate feeling of empathy is perhaps the natural response when facing such situations. Even fundamentally, reasoning that virtue lies in serving humanity has to evolve from empathy for other humans—recognition that what it means to be them is perhaps very similar to what it means to be me, and therefore their suffering must feel an awful lot like mine. Take care my friend—I wish you the very best. As Seneca one said, it is the quality and not the quantity of life that truly matters.
Thank you again for sharing your story and your thoughts on this topic. It is hugely inspiring!
Do we "fight for justice" by killing opressors? Or by making opressors and victims wise?
https://janniklindquist.substack.com/p/a-few-quick-notes-on-committing-injustice-18-12-20?utm_source=publication-search
A lot of these points are validated by Paul Bloom in his book “Against Empathy.” As ChatGPT points out, sentimentality makes us act in irrational ways when we’re trying to act benevolently when reason would actually serve better.
Thank you! That's extremely interesting. I will check out his book, for sure.