Stoicism and pleasure

A conversation with ChatGPT about joy and pleasure as understood by the Stoics

In this conversation with ChatGPT I'm trying to get a better understanding of how the Stoics analyzed what happens when pleasure becomes a goal itself rather than the not very interesting byproduct it naturally is to some experiences.

Jannik: How would you summarize the stoic view on pleasure?

ChatGPT 3.5: Stoicism has a nuanced view on pleasure. The Stoics do not categorically reject pleasure, but they do not place it as the highest good or the primary objective of life, either. Instead, they maintain that the goal of life is to live in agreement with nature, which implies a virtuous life of wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance.

In Stoic philosophy, pleasure is classified as an "indifferent"—something neither inherently good nor bad. Pleasure is not to be sought for its own sake, but it can be enjoyed when it results naturally from virtuous actions. Stoics argue that pleasure is not a reliable guide for behavior because it can lead to unethical actions if pursued without restraint. For instance, the pursuit of pleasure might lead to excessive indulgence or harm to others, which are not virtuous actions.

Moreover, Stoics believe in maintaining emotional tranquility, which they term "apatheia". They suggest that one should remain indifferent to both pleasure and pain, accepting both as transient aspects of life. By developing an indifference to pleasure, one can reduce the risk of becoming distressed when pleasure is absent.

However, it's important to note that indifference to pleasure does not mean that Stoics advocate for a life devoid of enjoyment. Instead, they encourage a moderate and virtuous approach to pleasure, where it is appreciated when it comes but is not allowed to disturb one's peace of mind when it goes.

In summary, Stoicism does not reject pleasure, but it does caution against becoming attached to it or allowing it to dictate one's actions. The Stoic view on pleasure emphasizes virtue, ethical living, and emotional tranquility over hedonism or the unrestrained pursuit of pleasure.

Jannik: But pleasure can also be a passion - and as such it is a bad thing.

ChatGPT: Indeed, the Stoics held a specific view on passions, which they referred to as "pathē". These were considered to be intense, irrational, and harmful emotional responses, and they were typically categorized into four main types: distress, fear, lust (or inappropriate desire), and delight. Delight, in this context, would be an excessive pleasure or a pleasure pursued inappropriately or irrationally.

It's important to understand that Stoics didn't consider all feelings or emotions to be bad, only those that resulted from false judgments and that disrupted the soul's tranquility. They believed that passions were the result of mistaken beliefs about what is truly good or bad in life.

So in the Stoic view, pleasure becomes a passion—and thus a bad thing—when it is pursued excessively or when one believes that it is the ultimate good. Such a belief can lead to inappropriate actions and disturb the emotional tranquility that Stoics strive to maintain.

For example, if one were to pursue sensual pleasure to the point of ignoring other responsibilities, or if one were to become so attached to pleasure that its absence caused distress, these would be seen as irrational responses based on the false belief that pleasure is a necessary good.

This is why Stoics emphasized virtue and wisdom as the highest goods, as these are within an individual's control, unlike external circumstances or pleasures. By focusing on what is within our control and accepting what is not, Stoics believed we can maintain emotional tranquility and live a good life.

Jannik: But how exactly does pleasure become a passion?

ChatGPT: In Stoic philosophy, passions (or "pathē") are seen as excessive and irrational emotional responses, rooted in false or mistaken judgments about what is good or bad. Pleasure can become a passion when it is pursued excessively, irrationally, or when it is misjudged as an ultimate good.

Here's how the process might work, according to Stoic thought:

1. Misjudgment: The process starts when we form a mistaken belief about pleasure—specifically, that it is an ultimate good or something that is necessary for a good life. This goes against the Stoic belief that virtue is the ultimate good and that external things, including pleasure, are indifferent (neither inherently good nor bad).

2. Desire: Based on this misjudgment, we may then develop an excessive or inappropriate desire for pleasure. This could manifest as craving, addiction, or an unbalanced focus on seeking pleasure to the neglect of other important aspects of life.

3. Passion: When this desire becomes intense and begins to disturb our tranquility, it turns into a passion. This might include feelings of distress when the desired pleasure is absent, fear of losing the source of pleasure, or a sense of elation that is overly dependent on the presence of pleasure.

4. Action: The passion can then lead to harmful or unethical actions, as we may go to great lengths to obtain the desired pleasure, even if it means behaving unethically or neglecting our duties.

So, pleasure can become a passion through a process of misjudgment, excessive desire, emotional disturbance, and potentially harmful action. The Stoics believed that this process could be avoided by cultivating wisdom and virtue, which would allow us to see pleasure for what it really is—an indifferent—and to maintain our emotional tranquility regardless of whether pleasure is present or absent.

Jannik: This seems to indicate that a person in the grip of pleasure as a passion sees pleasure as a goal for his actions. But how does this square with the stoic position that pleasure is a byproduct - not a goal?

Diogenes Laertius writes:

"For they say that pleasure is, if anything, a byproduct which supervenes when nature itself, on its own, seeks out and acquires what is suitable to the animal's constitution. It is like the condition of thriving animals and plants in top condition".

ChatGPT: The passage you've quoted from Diogenes Laertius' work is a good summary of the Stoic view of pleasure. Stoics saw pleasure as something that naturally occurs when one is living in accordance with nature—when one is acting virtuously and in line with their rational nature. They believed that pleasure should not be the ultimate goal of one's actions, but rather a byproduct of living a good and virtuous life.

This view of pleasure does seem to be at odds with the idea of pleasure as a passion, where pleasure is pursued as an ultimate goal. The key to reconciling these positions lies in understanding the Stoic concept of passions as distortions of judgment and excessive emotional responses.

When pleasure becomes a passion, it means that an individual has made a misjudgment, viewing pleasure as an ultimate good and thereby making it the goal of their actions. This is in direct contrast to the Stoic view of pleasure as a byproduct rather than a goal.

The Stoics would argue that such a person is mistaken in their beliefs and is likely to experience distress and disturbance as a result. They would advocate for a return to correct judgment, seeing pleasure as an indifferent and understanding that the true goal should be virtue and wisdom.

In the Stoic view, if one acts virtuously, pleasure may follow naturally, but it is not the ultimate goal or the measure of a good life. Instead, the measure of a good life is living in accordance with nature and virtue. This means living rationally, with wisdom and integrity, accepting the things we cannot control, and focusing on the things we can—our own judgments, intentions, and actions.

Jannik: So, it's a difference between eating an ice cream (or many ice creams) for the sake of experiencing pleasure (the outcome) and eating an ice cream for the sake of the nice taste (the experience producing the outcome)?

ChatGPT: Yes, that's a good analogy. The distinction lies in the motivation behind the action and how one relates to the experience of pleasure.

If you're eating ice cream solely for the purpose of experiencing pleasure, then you're treating pleasure as the ultimate goal of your action. This aligns more with the concept of pleasure as a passion, where pleasure is pursued as an ultimate good. This could potentially lead to excessive or inappropriate desire (e.g., eating too much ice cream, to the point of feeling sick), especially if the absence of pleasure (not being able to eat ice cream) causes distress.

On the other hand, if you're eating ice cream because you enjoy the taste, then the pleasure you get from eating the ice cream is more of a byproduct of your action. You're engaging in the activity because it aligns with your rational judgment (you like the taste of ice cream, and eating it in moderation is a part of enjoying life), not because you're seeking pleasure as an ultimate goal. The pleasure is a natural consequence of the activity, not the primary aim.

This is closer to the Stoic view of pleasure as a byproduct of living in accordance with nature and virtue. In this case, if for some reason you were unable to eat ice cream, you would be able to accept it without undue distress because your happiness and tranquility do not depend on the presence of pleasure.

So, the Stoics would advise enjoying the ice cream—and the pleasure it brings—without becoming attached to it or seeing it as the ultimate goal of your action. They would encourage you to enjoy the experience in the moment, while also maintaining a broader perspective that recognizes the transient nature of pleasure and the importance of other virtues in living a good life.

Jannik: It seems to me that in the passage I quoted from Diogenes Laertius he is actually describing what the Stoics normally refer to as joy. What do you think?

ChatGPT: The Stoics did indeed make a distinction between pleasure (hedone) and joy (chara). Pleasure was seen as a response to a present bodily delight, whereas joy was an emotion experienced by the mind in response to something good that is present, and was considered a rational and active emotion.

In the quote you provided from Diogenes Laertius, it does seem that the "pleasure" being described aligns more closely with the Stoic concept of joy rather than pleasure in the hedonistic sense. The Stoics believed that joy results from acting virtuously and living in accordance with nature. It's an emotion that is rational, in line with virtue, and consistent with the pursuit of wisdom.

So, in the Stoic view, the goal isn't to seek pleasure for its own sake, but rather to live virtuously and in accordance with nature. The byproduct of this—joy—is a state of contentment and satisfaction that arises naturally from living a virtuous life, not from the pursuit of transient bodily pleasures.

However, it's important to note that the exact meanings of these terms can vary based on the context and the translation. The Stoics wrote in ancient Greek, and the words they used don't always have exact equivalents in modern English. Different scholars may translate and interpret these terms in slightly different ways. But the general principle—that the Stoics valued virtue and rationality over the pursuit of pleasure—remains consistent.

Jannik: So the difference between pleasure as an indifferent and joy is that pleasure is a byproduct of physical sensations and joy is a byproduct of a cognitive process?

ChatGPT: Yes, that's a good way to describe the distinction in Stoic philosophy. Pleasure (hedone) is often associated with physical sensations or external events. It's considered an "indifferent" in Stoic thought, meaning it's not inherently good or bad. It's a passive response to something that is happening to us or around us. Pleasure can be enjoyed when it occurs naturally, but it's not to be pursued as an end in itself.

Joy (chara), on the other hand, is seen as an active, rational emotion that arises from living in accordance with nature and virtue. It's a byproduct of wise and virtuous actions, of making correct judgments, and of living in harmony with one's rational nature. Unlike pleasure, joy is not dependent on external circumstances or physical sensations. It's more about an inner state of contentment and satisfaction that comes from living a good life.

So, while both pleasure and joy can be seen as positive experiences, they have different sources and implications in Stoic thought. Pleasure is a response to external stimuli and is transient, while joy is a more enduring state that arises from within and is aligned with virtue and wisdom.

Stoic philosophers having a good time. Midjourney.

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