I like to think it's a bit of both. It philosophically teaches the nine noble virtues which were in the original religion, as old as nature itself. And will still exist passed the time of man.
But - if virtue is defined as knowledge and religion is to some extent a matter of belief, it doesn't seem correct to describe Stoicism as a religion. Not even as partly a religion. But - perhaps the ancient Stoics would in fact say, if pressed on this question, that virtue (to some extent) is a matter of belief.
And religion is based on belief. You believe there is a God coming to save you. I believe I need to save myself. A good moral fiber is not hard to hold. It doesn't require religion. It requires belief.
What I meant was: is it really possible to *know* that the universe is good? Won't it always require some extent of belief to assume (for want of a better word) goodness? If the answer is yes, we seem unable to escape religion.
Religion causes discrimination. Of which Religion is correct. Following the nine noble virtues is not hard. Death is inevitable. And if you hurt someone intentionally, you should feel bed. Not because of Religion but because it was wrong. Command your life. Be accountable.
Religion is the root of evil. The only religion that will remain is the one put here by nature herself. She is good. She teaches goodness. Is man is evil he needs to be removed.
And born with an innate sense of what is right and wrong. Once this is lost, through the external influences of the environment we are brought up in, we can spend a lifetime attempting to recover it. If we are lucky enough to have the self awareness to do so. Confusing religion with spirituality is where the conflict and confusion began.
I can try. Spiritually is the nurturing of a personal relationship with a creator, a divine intelligence, God. Of one’s own understanding, even if God is far too powerful to be understood, given the limitations of our senses. And to live in harmony with nature, and our fellow men, striving to be the best possible versions of ourselves as the creator intended.
Religion is allowing that belief to be expressed for us, sometimes in a very dogmatic fashion, and to be told that not adhering to it is wrong, and condemns us not just in this life, but for eternity. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and mine was the first generation to basically turn our backs on the church as soon as we became teenagers, so I’m slightly biased against organised religion as a consequence, as I’m sure you will understand.
The confusion and conflict I mentioned is when spirituality on a personal basis is substituted by a belonging to a religion that is bound to clash with other religions as a result of their differences. In the most violent ways, as we have seen throughout history. That’s the best I can come up with at the moment as I need to read a bedtime story to a young one.
Kevin I do not follow Religion. Nor do I believe in a God. And I am even later at being made aware of your note than Jannik, who has been dear to me for years now. Man needs to believe in his abilities. Adhere to Nine noble virtues.
Not hurt each other but be respectful and mindful of other creatures and other humans. I see Religion as a great divider. Some things are just clearly and apparently wrong. The indoctrination and labeling of children going on in schools today is grossly out of line.
In preschool to teach a 3 year old ( and this is where it starts thar they are gay is not the way ) perhaps at 13-17 they thought this way without being guided it's OK. But there is not a mass generation of gay children. There is not even a mass generation of Autism going on. This has been the progressive narrative. It is now at a point that is unnatural. Gender reassignment for 10 year Olds wow absurd. Recently I believe it was in Michigan a couple lost custody of their 10 year old for this very reason. See does not to be taught to toddlers or young influenced minds.
People are individuals and should be taught according. Everyone is not the same. Public schools in poor sectors and single impoverished parents feel these things the most. They are not offered the same education that comes out of a private sector. The extra curricular activities are nearly nullified.
They have volunteers to watch children because everyone is so busy working.
At what price is too much before people see? This should not be. Children are dying, getting abused, doing street drugs. Do you really think all this is supplied by the bad kids? Who do you think those bad kids are and just how did they start these things. Control. It is about control. Who is in control of themselves does not suffer as much.
Those that are controlled by any means necessary ( Religion included ) are not in command of their life. Lines and boundaries have always existed since the beginning of time. But man fancied himself to far. Now look where we are.
Look inside and know thyself. If you have bad thoughts correct them. Separate your feelings and thoughts if you cannot control yourself. These are elementary standards and yet they seem to need to be taught. Mind boggling really. Sorry, Jannik, for ranting on your notes again. I will try to refrain. Sincerely, Denise
I’m not arguing with you, Denise. On any point. I have two small children in my care at the moment. I’m seriously thinking of taking them out of the public school system and home schooling them.
The following quote from Seneca is highly relevant here. In my opinion, he clearly acknowledges here that Stoicism shares very important characteristica with religion.
”Just as the more sacred elements of a religion are known only to initiates, so in philosophy the inmost parts are revealed only to those who have been fully admitted and received into its mysteries. But precepts and the like are also shared with outsiders.”
And Christopher Jedan's excellent book "Stoic Virtues: Chrysippus and the Religious Character of Stoic Ethics" deals in great depth with the questions raised in this post.
I like to think it's a bit of both. It philosophically teaches the nine noble virtues which were in the original religion, as old as nature itself. And will still exist passed the time of man.
But - if virtue is defined as knowledge and religion is to some extent a matter of belief, it doesn't seem correct to describe Stoicism as a religion. Not even as partly a religion. But - perhaps the ancient Stoics would in fact say, if pressed on this question, that virtue (to some extent) is a matter of belief.
And religion is based on belief. You believe there is a God coming to save you. I believe I need to save myself. A good moral fiber is not hard to hold. It doesn't require religion. It requires belief.
What I meant was: is it really possible to *know* that the universe is good? Won't it always require some extent of belief to assume (for want of a better word) goodness? If the answer is yes, we seem unable to escape religion.
Religion causes discrimination. Of which Religion is correct. Following the nine noble virtues is not hard. Death is inevitable. And if you hurt someone intentionally, you should feel bed. Not because of Religion but because it was wrong. Command your life. Be accountable.
It seems to me that you're preaching - against religion. And I'm philosophizing - in favour of some element of religion 😎
Probably true. Religion seems to discriminate against other religions that do not align to their own philosophy
Religion is the root of evil. The only religion that will remain is the one put here by nature herself. She is good. She teaches goodness. Is man is evil he needs to be removed.
Human beings were created by nature. If nature is good, human beings can be good as well.
And born with an innate sense of what is right and wrong. Once this is lost, through the external influences of the environment we are brought up in, we can spend a lifetime attempting to recover it. If we are lucky enough to have the self awareness to do so. Confusing religion with spirituality is where the conflict and confusion began.
Can you define religion and spirituality? And can you say describe the confusion you mention in greater detail?
I look forward to reading that book you recommended. Thanks again.
I can try. Spiritually is the nurturing of a personal relationship with a creator, a divine intelligence, God. Of one’s own understanding, even if God is far too powerful to be understood, given the limitations of our senses. And to live in harmony with nature, and our fellow men, striving to be the best possible versions of ourselves as the creator intended.
Religion is allowing that belief to be expressed for us, sometimes in a very dogmatic fashion, and to be told that not adhering to it is wrong, and condemns us not just in this life, but for eternity. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and mine was the first generation to basically turn our backs on the church as soon as we became teenagers, so I’m slightly biased against organised religion as a consequence, as I’m sure you will understand.
The confusion and conflict I mentioned is when spirituality on a personal basis is substituted by a belonging to a religion that is bound to clash with other religions as a result of their differences. In the most violent ways, as we have seen throughout history. That’s the best I can come up with at the moment as I need to read a bedtime story to a young one.
Sorry for not seeing this reply before now, dear Kevin. I will reply as soon as possible 🤗
Kevin I do not follow Religion. Nor do I believe in a God. And I am even later at being made aware of your note than Jannik, who has been dear to me for years now. Man needs to believe in his abilities. Adhere to Nine noble virtues.
Not hurt each other but be respectful and mindful of other creatures and other humans. I see Religion as a great divider. Some things are just clearly and apparently wrong. The indoctrination and labeling of children going on in schools today is grossly out of line.
In preschool to teach a 3 year old ( and this is where it starts thar they are gay is not the way ) perhaps at 13-17 they thought this way without being guided it's OK. But there is not a mass generation of gay children. There is not even a mass generation of Autism going on. This has been the progressive narrative. It is now at a point that is unnatural. Gender reassignment for 10 year Olds wow absurd. Recently I believe it was in Michigan a couple lost custody of their 10 year old for this very reason. See does not to be taught to toddlers or young influenced minds.
People are individuals and should be taught according. Everyone is not the same. Public schools in poor sectors and single impoverished parents feel these things the most. They are not offered the same education that comes out of a private sector. The extra curricular activities are nearly nullified.
They have volunteers to watch children because everyone is so busy working.
At what price is too much before people see? This should not be. Children are dying, getting abused, doing street drugs. Do you really think all this is supplied by the bad kids? Who do you think those bad kids are and just how did they start these things. Control. It is about control. Who is in control of themselves does not suffer as much.
Those that are controlled by any means necessary ( Religion included ) are not in command of their life. Lines and boundaries have always existed since the beginning of time. But man fancied himself to far. Now look where we are.
Look inside and know thyself. If you have bad thoughts correct them. Separate your feelings and thoughts if you cannot control yourself. These are elementary standards and yet they seem to need to be taught. Mind boggling really. Sorry, Jannik, for ranting on your notes again. I will try to refrain. Sincerely, Denise
I’m not arguing with you, Denise. On any point. I have two small children in my care at the moment. I’m seriously thinking of taking them out of the public school system and home schooling them.
I have done that!
In Scandinavia they hold true to the stoic philosophy. The churches are empty.
Hahaha 😁 Not quite true. My ex-wife is a priest and she has very loyal congregation - and that is actually the norm in Danish churches 😊
The following quote from Seneca is highly relevant here. In my opinion, he clearly acknowledges here that Stoicism shares very important characteristica with religion.
”Just as the more sacred elements of a religion are known only to initiates, so in philosophy the inmost parts are revealed only to those who have been fully admitted and received into its mysteries. But precepts and the like are also shared with outsiders.”
- Seneca, Letters 95.64
And Christopher Jedan's excellent book "Stoic Virtues: Chrysippus and the Religious Character of Stoic Ethics" deals in great depth with the questions raised in this post.
Many thanks for sharing, dear Jannik.✍️👏
My pleasure, my friend 😊