"No one is denying that all emotions stem from a source that is, in a sense, natural. Nature has endowed us with a concern for ourselves; but once we indulge this concern excessively, it becomes a fault. Nature infused the necessities of life with pleasure, not so that we would pursue pleasure, but so that the supervening pleasure would make what is indispensable more welcome to us. If the pleasure is pursued for its own sake, it becomes self-indulgence.”
- Seneca, Letters 116.2
Eating a cake just to enjoy the taste of the cake would be an example of what Seneca means when he talks about pursuing pleasure for its own sake. But are we really - even in that scenario - eating the cake for the sake of pleasure?
The Stoics maintained that the experience of pleasure was a phenomenon that supervened on certain activities - such as drinking when we are thirsty and eating when we are hungry. If this is correct - and it probably is - it must be something other than pleasure that we seek when we eat a cake or drink a glass of wine. But what? Presumably an experience that somehow either reminds of our values, makes us more aware of our values or teaches us about values. At least, that would explain why we get pleasure from that experience.
The Stoics seem to be onto something in being critical of that experience. Most of us know from first hand experience how easy it is to be misled into eating too much of tasty thing etc. But they seem to be wrong in saying that the problem with that kind of experience is that we “pursue pleasure for it’s own sake” - since it must be something other than pleasure we are seeking.
What do you think?
A very famous - and mysterious - Roman mosaic from the 1st century AD. Is the fruit in the top right corner a pineapple? If so, how did it get there?
It seems to me that what we are seeking when we indulge in cake, wine etc is a sensual representation of the Good and The Beautiful. We feel pleasure in so far as we feel we are reaching that goal but since it is only a representation we are never truly satisfied - and often we end up further away from the goal the more we try to reach it through the senses.
If this is Plato's position, it is puzzling why he seems to hold music in such high regard. Seneca was very critical of music - so perhaps Seneca was a more radical Platonist than Plato?
Another one of your fascinating conversations with ChatGPT has led me here...so much to digest from your newsletter, and the relevant links! And that is definitely, and mysteriously, a pineapple!
Many, many thanks to you, dear Jannik. You have had a profound effect upon my thinking for years, and continue to do so. I look forward to your next offering. Take good care of yourself mo chāra!💚🙏
It seems to me that what we are seeking when we indulge in cake, wine etc is a sensual representation of the Good and The Beautiful. We feel pleasure in so far as we feel we are reaching that goal but since it is only a representation we are never truly satisfied - and often we end up further away from the goal the more we try to reach it through the senses.
If this is Plato's position, it is puzzling why he seems to hold music in such high regard. Seneca was very critical of music - so perhaps Seneca was a more radical Platonist than Plato?
This is relevant here: https://janniklindquist.substack.com/p/is-the-cause-of-all-our-sorrows-our
Another one of your fascinating conversations with ChatGPT has led me here...so much to digest from your newsletter, and the relevant links! And that is definitely, and mysteriously, a pineapple!
Thanks Jannik.👏
Thank you for taking the time to comment and for all your support, dear Kevin :-)
Many, many thanks to you, dear Jannik. You have had a profound effect upon my thinking for years, and continue to do so. I look forward to your next offering. Take good care of yourself mo chāra!💚🙏
You too, Kevin 😊