Justice as virtue in relation to another
A conversation with ChatGPT about justice as a virtue in Plato's Republic
Jannik: Here is a quote from Aristotle - which in my opinion is one of most important passages in all of Greek and Roman ancient ethics.
"justice is complete virtue to the highest degree because it is the complete exercise of complete virtue. And it is the complete exercise because the person who has justice is able to exercise virtue in relation to another, not only in what concerns himself; for many are able to exercise virtue in their own concerns, but unable in what relates to another".
- Aristotle Nichomacean Ethics 1129b30
I think it shows the following:
- First that virtue is not in itself "moral" - i.e. directed towards someone or something outside ourselves . The courage we need to go the dentist or to survive alone in the wilderness is a virtue but in those examples the virtue is only directed towards ourselves. Not someone or something else. When we courageously save someone from drowning, on the other hand, we are both acting on the basis of courage and on the basis of justice since we are acting because we care about another person.
- Secondly, it shows that justice is exactly "moral" in the sense of being directed towards all that "belongs to us" - not just ourselves.
ChatGPT: I agree with your interpretation of this quote from Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. Let's break down the main points you've made:
1. Virtue is not inherently moral: Aristotle argues that virtue in itself does not always have an external moral component. You've provided examples of courage as a virtue that can be directed either internally (going to the dentist or surviving in the wilderness) or externally (saving someone from drowning). The former instances demonstrate virtues directed towards oneself, while the latter reflects a moral virtue, as it involves considering the well-being of others.
2. Justice is moral: In Aristotle's view, justice is the highest form of virtue because it extends beyond self-interest and involves acting in a morally right way towards others. In this sense, justice is moral, as it directs us to consider not only our own well-being but also the well-being of others and everything that "belongs to us." This broader perspective is what sets justice apart from other virtues, making it a complete exercise of complete virtue.
In conclusion, Aristotle's quote emphasizes the importance of justice as a moral virtue. While other virtues can be directed towards oneself, justice requires individuals to exercise their virtues in relation to others, fostering a more interconnected and moral society.
Jannik: This raises a problem for a certain kind of interpretation of Plato's Republic. According to that line of interpretation the virtue justice in Plato's Republic is simply the harmonious interaction between different parts of the soul. In other words, a conception of justice that is focused on the happiness of one individual and completely oblivious to the common good.
ChatGPT: You raise an interesting point. The interpretation you mentioned refers to the idea that justice in Plato's Republic is primarily concerned with the harmony of the individual's soul, with each part performing its proper function. This conception of justice, as you pointed out, seems to be more inward-looking and less focused on the common good.
However, it's important to remember that Plato's Republic also discusses the concept of justice on a broader, societal level. The just city, or Kallipolis, is envisioned as a place where each citizen performs their role according to their nature and abilities, contributing to the overall harmony and well-being of the society. In this way, justice in the Republic can also be understood as promoting the common good.
The apparent tension between these two interpretations of justice in Plato's Republic can be reconciled by considering that the harmony of an individual's soul, as well as the harmony of society, both ultimately contribute to the common good. When individuals are just and have harmonious souls, they are better equipped to contribute positively to society. In turn, a just society allows individuals to develop and maintain the harmony within their souls.
In summary, while it is true that Plato's conception of justice in the Republic has an inward-looking aspect that focuses on the harmony of the individual's soul, it also encompasses a broader understanding of justice that is concerned with the common good, emphasizing the interconnectedness between individual and societal well-being.
Jannik: I agree entirely - and it could be added that harmonious individuals in all classes in Plato's Republic have an understanding of the common good and of their role in the larger perspective.
ChatGPT: Absolutely, you make an important point. In Plato's Republic, the harmonious individuals within each class of society (guardians, auxiliaries, and producers) understand their roles and how they contribute to the overall common good.
In the Kallipolis, each class has a specific function:
1. Guardians (or philosopher-kings) are responsible for ruling the city with wisdom and ensuring its well-being. They possess the highest level of knowledge, with a deep understanding of the common good and the ability to make just decisions for the benefit of all.
2. Auxiliaries serve as the city's defenders and maintain order. They are trained to be courageous and loyal, understanding that their role is crucial in protecting the common good and preserving the harmony of the city.
3. Producers comprise the majority of the population and are responsible for the city's economic productivity. They work in various trades and professions, providing essential goods and services. Producers also understand that their work contributes to the common good, ensuring the city's prosperity and stability.
In Plato's ideal city, each class contributes to the common good, and individuals are aware of how their roles and actions relate to the larger perspective. This mutual understanding and harmonious cooperation among the different classes ultimately lead to a just society that promotes the well-being of all its members.
In this way, Plato's conception of justice in the Republic not only focuses on the harmony within an individual's soul but also emphasizes the importance of individuals understanding their roles and responsibilities within society, thereby contributing to the common good.
Jannik: Again I agree wholeheartedly. Justice in the Republic does not just consist in having a harmonious soul but in understanding one’s role in the community and in acting for the common good.
ChatGPT: Yes, your understanding of justice in Plato's Republic is accurate. Justice, as presented by Plato, extends beyond having a harmonious soul to include an individual's understanding of their role in the community and acting for the common good.
In the Republic, the just city (Kallipolis) is built on the idea that each person, regardless of their class or role, contributes to the well-being of society. This interconnectedness and cooperation among individuals are crucial to achieving a just and harmonious society.
Individuals with harmonious souls are better equipped to understand their responsibilities and act for the common good. In turn, a just society fosters an environment that enables individuals to cultivate harmonious souls and live fulfilling lives.
Thus, justice in the Republic is a holistic concept that encompasses both individual and societal well-being. It underscores the importance of personal virtue and harmony, as well as understanding and fulfilling one's role in the community for the betterment of all.
Jannik: It's interesting that Socrates never says that the portrait of the harmonious interaction of classes in the state is meant only as an anaology to a harmonious relationship between parts of the soul. He says that maybe there will be "more justice in the bigger thing" and it will be "easier to grasp there". I think it can be argued that the real purpose of the extensive description of the just state is not to serve as analogy to the soul but to flesh out the other-directed part of the virtue justice.
ChatGPT: You bring up an interesting point, highlighting that Socrates never explicitly states that the description of the just state is meant solely as an analogy for the harmonious relationship between parts of the soul. Instead, he suggests that there might be "more justice in the bigger thing" (i.e., the state) and that it would be "easier to grasp there."
This could indeed be interpreted as an argument that the extensive description of the just state in the Republic is not merely an analogy, but rather a way to emphasize the other-directed aspect of the virtue of justice. In other words, the just state serves as a more comprehensive representation of justice, showcasing how individuals acting for the common good can lead to a harmonious society.
By detailing how the various classes in the just state interact harmoniously and work together for the common good, Plato demonstrates the importance of understanding one's role in society and acting accordingly. This other-directed aspect of justice, which goes beyond the harmony of an individual's soul, is crucial to the overall well-being of the society.
In this light, the just state can be seen as both an analogy for the individual soul and a more complete representation of the virtue of justice, encompassing both individual and societal dimensions. This interpretation highlights the intricate connection between personal virtue, social responsibility, and the common good, which are all central themes in Plato's Republic.
Jannik: I think it is obvious that Plato's ideal state is modelled after his idea of justice in the cosmos - and that Plato wants us to learn about all aspects of justice from these models - both justice as harmony between the parts of the soul and justice as care for the common good.
"‘if someone truly has his mind on things as they really are, he will not have time to look down at the preoccupations of mere mortals and fight with them, filling himself full of malice and ill-will. Instead, as he turns his eyes towards an ordered array of things that forever remain the same, and observes these maintaining their harmony and rationality in everything, and neither behaving unjustly nor being treated unjustly by each other, he will imitate these and model himself after them so far as he can. Or do you think anyone can avoid imitating a thing he spends his time with, and in awe of?’
‘He can’t,’ said Adimantus.
‘So if the philosopher spends his time with the divine and ordered, he’ll achieve such order and divinity as is possible for man'".
- Socrates in Plato's Republic, 500b-d
ChatGPT: You are correct in pointing out that Plato's ideal state is modeled after his idea of justice in the cosmos, and that he intends for us to learn about all aspects of justice through these models. The quote you shared from Plato's Republic (500b-d) supports this view, illustrating how the philosopher who contemplates and admires the divine and ordered aspects of reality will naturally strive to imitate and embody those qualities.
In this context, Plato's ideal state serves as a microcosm of the cosmic order, with justice as the central principle that underlies both individual and societal harmony. By contemplating the just state and understanding how its different components interact harmoniously for the common good, individuals can learn to cultivate harmony within their souls and act in ways that promote justice in the world around them.
This passage from the Republic also emphasizes the transformative power of engaging with the divine and ordered aspects of reality. By contemplating and admiring these aspects, philosophers become more like the divine and ordered entities they study, embodying the virtues of harmony, rationality, and justice in their own lives.
In conclusion, Plato's ideal state reflects his conception of justice in the cosmos and serves as a model for us to learn about the different aspects of justice, including harmony within the soul and care for the common good. By contemplating this model and striving to emulate its virtues, individuals can grow in their understanding of justice and contribute to the cultivation of a just society.