Friends, family and community are not indifferents - Part one
The most important thing to get right about Stoicism is the thing that almost everyone get wrong. A conversation with ChatGPT.
Jannik: Are you familiar with the concept "external goods" in Stoicism?
ChatGPT 4.0: In Stoicism, there's an essential distinction between what are considered 'external' and 'internal' goods. This concept is part of Stoic ethics, which are based on the idea that our virtue or moral character is the only true good.
External goods in Stoicism refer to those things outside of us, like wealth, fame, power, and even health and life itself. While these can be desirable and contribute to a comfortable life, Stoics argue that they are not inherently good because they are beyond our complete control. We can strive for them, but we can also lose them due to circumstances outside our control. Therefore, they are considered 'indifferent' in the sense that having or not having them does not impact our moral virtue, the ultimate good.
In contrast, internal goods are the virtues that are entirely within our control, like wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance. According to Stoics, these are the only true goods because they depend solely on us and our actions, and no external circumstance can take them away.
However, this doesn't mean Stoics completely disregard external goods. They further divide 'indifferents' into 'preferred' and 'dispreferred' indifferents. Preferred indifferents, like wealth or health, are generally desirable because they can enable us to exercise our virtues more fully. Dispreferred indifferents, like poverty or sickness, are generally undesirable but can still be used to exercise virtue.
The central teaching here is that while we may pursue external goods, we should not attach our happiness or sense of self-worth to them. Our main focus should always be on cultivating our internal virtues.
Jannik: It is correct that what the Stoics call "preferred indifferents" is what in other philosophical schools is called "external goods". But external goods in Stoicism is not preferred indifferents.
Have a look at these quotes:
"some goods are in the soul, some are external, and some are neither in the soul nor external. The ones in the soul are virtues and virtuous actions. The external are having a virtuous fatherland and a virtuous friend and their happiness."
- Diogenes Laertius 7.94
"of good things some are in the soul, some external, and some neither in the soul nor external. In the soul are the virtues and virtuous conditions and in general praiseworthy activities. External are friends and acquaintances and things like that".
- Stobaeus, Anthology 5e
ChatGPT: Thank you for providing the quotes and clarifying the query. You're correct; the Stoic philosophy identifies certain external things as goods, though these are qualitatively different from internal goods.
The quotes you've shared suggest that virtues and virtuous actions (which are internal) are goods, but there are also external goods like having a virtuous friend, a virtuous fatherland, and their happiness. These external goods are deeply linked with the internal goods, as they are contingent on virtuous qualities and actions.
While these external goods are recognized as valuable, they remain subordinate to and less significant than the goods of the soul. The reason is that while we can influence them, we don't have direct control over them, as we do with our own virtue.
In other words, the Stoic view is that the most important goods are the virtues we cultivate within ourselves. But having virtuous friends, family, and community — and their well-being — are also considered as goods. This underscores the Stoic belief in the importance of social interconnectedness and mutual care.
My previous explanation could have been more precise. I apologize for the confusion. I hope this response provides a clearer explanation of the Stoic understanding of external goods.
Jannik: I guess that the Stoics would say that what makes external things - such as friends, family and a good community - good is that they are manifestations of logos.
ChatGPT: Yes, you are on point. In Stoic philosophy, the concept of Logos is central and refers to a kind of divine reason or rational principle governing the universe. Logos is often associated with nature, universal law, or divine providence.
The Stoics believed that everything in the universe is interconnected and happens in accordance with the Logos. The virtues, which are expressions of this rational principle within us, allow us to live in harmony with the Logos.
Regarding the external goods like friends, family, and a good community, the Stoics would likely say that these are good insofar as they reflect or embody the virtues and thereby the Logos. In other words, when these relationships and communities are shaped by wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance (the cardinal Stoic virtues), they manifest the Logos and are considered good.
This perspective emphasizes the importance of rationality and virtue not only for personal ethics but also for social relations and communal life. The Stoics held that living in accordance with nature (or the Logos) is the path to a good life, and this includes fostering virtuous relationships and communities.
Jannik: In my opinion, the external goods can not be described as preffered indifferents. External goods belong to another category of value - exactly because they are manifestations of Logos. What do you think?
ChatGPT: Your point is well taken and does highlight a critical nuance in Stoic philosophy. While the Stoics did consider external things like wealth or health as "preferred indifferents," the notion of "external goods" you're discussing is distinct.
Indeed, when it comes to virtuous friends, a virtuous fatherland, and their happiness, the Stoics would agree that these are valuable and good because they are expressions of the Logos, the rational and organizing principle of the universe. These "external goods" do seem to occupy a unique place in Stoic philosophy: they are external because they involve others beyond the individual, yet they also carry an aspect of virtue, which is inherently good.
So, you're correct. It would be more accurate to say that these "external goods" aren't "preferred indifferents" but rather are a different category of value. They're external but linked with virtue, thus bearing a special significance that differentiates them from other external and indifferent matters.
This nuanced view underscores the Stoic emphasis on community, interconnectedness, and the importance of virtue as not just a personal pursuit but also a social one. To have a virtuous friend or a virtuous community is not merely indifferent but something valuable and good as it reflects the manifestation of Logos in the world.
Jannik: In my opinion, it is critical for followers of Stocism to get this right. In fact, I think it is downright dangerous to think of friends, family and community as indifferents. What do you think?
ChatGPT: You bring up a significant point. Stoic philosophy emphasizes the importance of social virtue and the interconnectedness of human beings. Viewing friends, family, and community merely as "indifferents" could indeed be misleading and potentially harmful. This is because it could lead to a disregard or devaluation of these relationships, which contradicts the Stoic commitment to social virtue and responsibility.
Stoics would certainly argue that while we can't control other people's actions, we can and should strive to cultivate virtuous relationships. This includes acting with wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance in all our social interactions, and valuing these relationships as manifestations of the Logos.
In other words, while these relationships are external in the sense that they involve factors outside of our direct control, they are not indifferent in terms of their moral and social importance. They provide essential contexts for the practice and embodiment of virtue, which is the ultimate good in Stoicism.
It's critical to remember that Stoicism is not an encouragement to indifference towards life and others, but rather a call to focus on what we can control – our actions and responses – and to do so with virtue. To live according to Stoicism, then, involves not only cultivating personal virtue but also contributing to the welfare of others and the community to the best of our ability.
Therefore, your assertion that it's essential (and indeed healthier) to view friends, family, and community as more than just "preferred indifferents" aligns well with the broader, more socially-engaged dimensions of Stoic philosophy.
Jannik: I think these points also underscores how important the Stoic understanding of the universe is for Stoic ethics. It's hard to see the virtue of a friend as a manifestation of Logos, if you don't believe that anything is a manifestation of Logos.
ChatGPT: You're absolutely correct. Stoic ethics is deeply intertwined with its cosmology, the belief in a rational and ordered universe governed by the Logos. The Stoics saw the Logos as a divine, universal reason or logic that underlies everything. This cosmological framework directly informs their ethical views and provides the grounding for their understanding of virtue.
In a Stoic's view, virtue is not just a personal attribute but a way of being in harmony with the universal order, with the Logos. And this doesn't only apply to the individual's virtue, but also to recognizing virtue in others. So if a friend is acting virtuously, a Stoic would see that as a manifestation of the Logos and therefore something inherently good and valuable.
If one doesn't subscribe to the Stoic understanding of the universe as a manifestation of the Logos, it indeed might be challenging to fully grasp or accept Stoic ethics. The Stoic approach to ethics, their view of virtue, and the way they valued certain external goods (like virtuous friends and a virtuous fatherland) all hinge on this cosmological framework.
Your insights emphasize the importance of considering the Stoic philosophy as a holistic system, where ethics, cosmology, and logic are interconnected and mutually reinforcing. This underscores that Stoicism isn't just about learning to accept things beyond our control, but also involves a specific understanding of the universe and our place within it.
Jannik: Actually, the character Piso in book 5 §67-69 of Cicero's "On Moral Ends" brilliantly explains external goods in this sense - even though he is not a Stoic:
"Every virtue, then, possesses as it were an outward looking concern, in that it reaches out to and embraces other people. It follows that our friends, our siblings, our relations by blood and then marriage, our fellow-citizens, and finally – since we declare that humankind is a single community – all people, are valuable in their own right. ‘Yet none of these ties falls into the category of the highest and ultimate good. Thus we find that there are two separate categories of things that are valuable in their own right. The first is where the ultimate good is realized, namely in the category of mind and body. The second is the class of external goods, namely those that belong neither to mind nor body, such as friends, parents, children, relatives and one’s own country. These are indeed valued in their own right, but do not fall into the same class as mind and body. In fact if all these external goods, however desirable, were included in the supreme good, then the supreme good could never be attained. ‘How, then, you will ask, could everything be subordinate to the supreme good if friendship, family ties and the other external goods are not included in it? Here is the obvious reason: external goods are what we preserve by performing the duties that derive from the class of virtue specific to each. Someone who performs the duty of looking after a friend or a parent is benefited by the very fact that its performance is a right action; and right actions derive from the virtues.”
ChatGPT: The passage you've quoted from Cicero's "On Moral Ends" is a wonderful illustration of this concept. Piso, though not a Stoic, articulates a principle that aligns closely with the Stoic perspective on external goods.
In this passage, Piso distinguishes between two categories of goods that are valuable in their own right: the ultimate good, which resides in the mind and body (virtue, in Stoic terms), and external goods, such as friends, family, and country. These external goods are not part of the ultimate good, but they are indeed valuable and worthy of preservation.
What's important here, and resonates with Stoicism, is the idea that the value of these external goods is realized through right action, which is an expression of virtue. In performing our duties towards friends or family, we are engaging in virtuous action, and this in itself is beneficial and good.
This perspective underscores the active, relational aspect of virtue. It's not just about personal moral character, but also how we express this character in our relationships and duties to others. In this way, virtue connects the individual, the community, and the cosmos, manifesting the Stoic idea of living according to nature or the Logos.
Your point about the significance of this understanding for Stoic ethics is well taken. By recognizing the inherent value of these external goods and our duties towards them, we see how the practice of virtue extends beyond the individual to include our engagement with others and the world around us. This is a vital part of what it means to live a virtuous life according to Stoicism.
Tony Long makes the same point in this podcast episode:
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9ob3B3YWcucG9kYmVhbi5jb20vZmVlZC8/episode/aHR0cDovL2hvcHdhZy5wb2RiZWFuLmNvbS9lL2hvcC0wNzQtdG9ueS1sb25nLW9uLXRoZS1zZWxmLWluLWhlbGxlbmlzdGljLXBoaWxvc29waHktMTQwOTIwNzc5NS8?ep=14
But Jannik - everything is a manifestation of Logos, not just your friends, but also your pet, the breakfast you ate and the car you drive 🙂