Callicles and George Bailey - bad ambition vs good ambition?
Is there such a thing as healthy ambition? Or is ambition always a vice. A conversation with DeepSeek
Jannik: Let's talk about Plato's dialogue Gorgias. One of the main characters is Callicles. How would you describe Callicles as he is portrayed by Plato?
DeepSeek: In Plato's dialogue Gorgias, Callicles is portrayed as a bold and provocative figure who represents a radical departure from conventional morality and philosophy. He is a young, ambitious Athenian who embodies the principles of natural superiority and the rejection of traditional notions of justice. Here are some key aspects of Callicles as depicted by Plato:
Advocate of Natural Justice: Callicles argues that conventional laws and morality are artificial constructs created by the weak to restrain the strong. He believes that true justice is rooted in nature, where the strong and superior individuals naturally dominate the weak. This view aligns with a kind of "might makes right" philosophy.
Critic of Conventional Morality: Callicles dismisses traditional virtues like moderation and equality as tools used by the masses to suppress exceptional individuals. He sees these values as contrary to human nature, which he believes rewards strength, ambition, and the pursuit of power.
Champion of Pleasure and Power: Callicles advocates for a life dedicated to the unrestrained pursuit of pleasure, power, and self-interest. He criticizes Socrates for promoting a life of philosophical contemplation and self-discipline, which he views as unnatural and unfulfilling.
Contrast to Socrates: Callicles serves as a foil to Socrates, representing a worldview that prioritizes physical and political power over intellectual and moral virtue. His arguments challenge Socrates to defend the value of philosophy and the examined life.
Arrogance and Overconfidence: Callicles is portrayed as confident to the point of arrogance. He is dismissive of Socrates' methods and believes his own perspective is self-evidently correct. This overconfidence ultimately leads to his frustration and inability to effectively counter Socrates' arguments.
Symbol of Athenian Ambition: Callicles can be seen as a symbol of the ambitious, power-hungry tendencies in Athenian society. His views reflect the moral and political tensions of the time, particularly the conflict between traditional values and the rise of sophistic ideas that prioritized rhetoric and success over truth and virtue.
Overall, Callicles is a complex and controversial character who challenges Socrates to articulate and defend the philosophical life. His views are extreme, but they serve an important role in the dialogue by highlighting the ethical and philosophical stakes of the debate.
Jannik: At 508a Socrates describes Callicles as a person driven by pleonexia. Can you say more about that concept?
DeepSeek: Certainly! The term pleonexia (πλεονεξία) is an ancient Greek concept that translates roughly to "greed," "avarice," or "the desire to have more." However, in a philosophical context, particularly in Plato's works, it carries a deeper and more nuanced meaning. It refers to an insatiable appetite for excess—whether in wealth, power, pleasure, or status—that goes beyond what is necessary or just. Let’s break this down further:
Key Aspects of Pleonexia:
Excessive Desire: Pleonexia is not just about wanting more; it is about wanting more than one’s share or more than is appropriate. It reflects a lack of moderation and a refusal to recognize limits, whether imposed by nature, law, or morality.
Injustice: In Plato’s philosophy, pleonexia is closely tied to injustice. It involves taking more than one deserves at the expense of others, disrupting the balance and harmony that justice seeks to maintain. This is why Socrates associates it with Callicles, who advocates for the strong to dominate the weak without regard for fairness or equality.
Rejection of Socratic Virtue: Socrates contrasts pleonexia with the virtues of moderation (sophrosyne) and justice. While Socrates promotes a life of self-control and ethical integrity, pleonexia represents the opposite: a life driven by unchecked ambition and self-interest.
Connection to Callicles: At 508a, Socrates describes Callicles as someone driven by pleonexia because Callicles openly advocates for the pursuit of unlimited pleasure, power, and advantage. Callicles believes that the strong should take whatever they can, without being constrained by conventional morality or laws. This aligns perfectly with the concept of pleonexia, as it reflects an unbridled desire for excess.
Broader Implications: Pleonexia is not just a personal failing; it has social and political consequences. In Plato’s view, a society dominated by pleonexia would be chaotic and unjust, as individuals would constantly compete to outdo one another, leading to conflict and inequality. This is why Socrates criticizes Callicles’ worldview as ultimately destructive, both for the individual and for society.
Philosophical Significance:
Ethical Critique: Pleonexia represents a fundamental ethical failing in Plato’s philosophy. It is the antithesis of the harmonious and balanced life that Socrates advocates, where reason governs desire and individuals strive for the common good.
Political Critique: In the Gorgias, pleonexia is also a critique of Athenian political culture, which Plato saw as increasingly driven by ambition, greed, and the pursuit of power at the expense of justice and virtue.
In summary, when Socrates describes Callicles as driven by pleonexia, he is highlighting Callicles’ unrestrained desire for excess and his rejection of moderation and justice. This concept serves as a key point of contrast between Callicles’ worldview and Socrates’ philosophical ideals.
Jannik: Do you think that ambition is always driven by pleonexia?
DeepSeek: No, ambition is not always driven by pleonexia. While pleonexia refers to an excessive, insatiable desire for more—often at the expense of others and in violation of moderation or justice—ambition can take many forms, some of which are positive and constructive. Whether ambition aligns with pleonexia depends on its nature, purpose, and the values guiding it. Let’s explore this distinction:
Ambition Driven by Pleonexia
Excessive and Selfish: When ambition is rooted in pleonexia, it is characterized by an unquenchable desire for power, wealth, or status, often without regard for ethical boundaries or the well-being of others. This type of ambition is self-serving and can lead to exploitation, injustice, and harm.
Example: A politician who seeks power solely for personal gain, manipulating or harming others to achieve their goals.
Lack of Moderation: Pleonexic ambition disregards the principle of moderation (sophrosyne) and seeks to accumulate far beyond what is necessary or fair.
Example: A business leader who prioritizes profit maximization at the expense of workers' rights or environmental sustainability.
Destructive Consequences: This kind of ambition can lead to social and moral decay, as it fosters competition, inequality, and conflict rather than cooperation and harmony.
Ambition Not Driven by Pleonexia
Constructive and Purpose-Driven: Ambition can be motivated by a desire to achieve meaningful goals, contribute to society, or fulfill one’s potential. This type of ambition is guided by values such as excellence (arete), justice, and the common good.
Example: A scientist striving to discover a cure for a disease, motivated by the desire to help humanity.
Moderate and Balanced: Healthy ambition recognizes limits and seeks to achieve goals without excess or harm to others. It aligns with the Socratic ideal of living a balanced and virtuous life.
Example: An artist working diligently to perfect their craft, not for fame or wealth, but for the intrinsic satisfaction of creating something beautiful.
Ethical and Altruistic: Ambition can be driven by a sense of duty, responsibility, or a desire to improve the world. This aligns with Plato’s vision of a just individual who uses their talents for the benefit of others.
Example: A teacher who aspires to inspire and educate students, motivated by a passion for learning and a commitment to future generations.
Key Differences
Motivation: Pleonexia is driven by selfishness and excess, while healthy ambition is often motivated by purpose, excellence, and the well-being of others.
Outcome: Pleonexic ambition tends to harm individuals and society, whereas constructive ambition contributes positively to personal growth and the common good.
Alignment with Virtue: Ambition that is not driven by pleonexia aligns with virtues like moderation, justice, and wisdom, which are central to Socratic and Platonic ethics.
Philosophical Perspective
From a Platonic standpoint, ambition is problematic only when it becomes excessive and disconnected from virtue. Socrates and Plato do not reject ambition outright; rather, they criticize its corrupt forms, such as those embodied by Callicles in the Gorgias. True ambition, in their view, should be directed toward the pursuit of the good, the beautiful, and the just.
Conclusion
Ambition is not inherently tied to pleonexia. It can be a positive force when guided by ethical principles and a commitment to the common good. The key distinction lies in whether ambition is pursued with moderation, justice, and a sense of responsibility—or whether it descends into greed, excess, and exploitation. In this way, ambition can be a virtue or a vice, depending on how it is practiced.
Jannik: It seems to me that Frank Capra's classic movie "It's a wonderful life" can be seen as comment on what you describe as healthy ambition. George Bailey wants to make his mark in the world by, for instance, becoming a famous engineer or something like that. But he chose to give up his ambitions and resume his responsibility as manager of the small, honest bank in his town because of how important it is for the thriving of the community. What do you think?
DeepSeek: You’re absolutely right! Frank Capra’s It’s a Wonderful Life is a profound exploration of the tension between personal ambition and communal responsibility, and it beautifully illustrates the distinction between healthy ambition and pleonexia. George Bailey’s story is a perfect example of how ambition can be redirected toward the common good, even when it requires personal sacrifice. Let’s break this down further:
George Bailey’s Ambition
Initial Dreams: George Bailey’s early ambitions are grand and individualistic—he dreams of traveling the world, becoming a famous engineer, and building grand structures like skyscrapers and bridges. These dreams reflect a desire to make a mark on the world and achieve personal greatness.
This kind of ambition is not inherently selfish or excessive; it is driven by a genuine passion for creation and exploration.
Conflict with Responsibility: However, George’s dreams are repeatedly thwarted by his sense of duty to his family and community. He sacrifices his personal ambitions to take over the Bailey Building and Loan, a small but vital institution that supports the working-class residents of Bedford Falls.
This sacrifice highlights the tension between individual aspirations and communal needs, a central theme in the film.
Healthy Ambition vs. Pleonexia
George’s Healthy Ambition: George’s ultimate choice to prioritize the well-being of his community over his personal dreams exemplifies healthy ambition. His ambition is redirected toward a higher purpose: ensuring the financial stability and moral integrity of Bedford Falls.
Unlike pleonexia, which seeks excess at the expense of others, George’s ambition is rooted in care, responsibility, and justice. He uses his talents and resources to uplift others, embodying the Socratic ideal of living a virtuous and meaningful life.
Contrast with Mr. Potter: The film contrasts George’s healthy ambition with the pleonexic ambition of Mr. Potter, the wealthy and ruthless businessman. Potter represents the unchecked desire for wealth and power, even if it means exploiting and impoverishing others.
Potter’s pleonexia is destructive, both to himself (as he becomes isolated and miserable) and to the community (as he seeks to dominate and control Bedford Falls).
Themes of Community and Virtue
Communal Thriving: George’s decision to stay in Bedford Falls and manage the Building and Loan ensures the community’s survival and prosperity. The film suggests that true success and fulfillment come not from individual achievement but from contributing to the well-being of others.
This aligns with Platonic ideals, where the good life is one of harmony, justice, and service to the community.
Virtue and Sacrifice: George’s sacrifices are portrayed as virtuous and noble. While he gives up his personal dreams, he gains something far more valuable: the love and respect of his family and community, as well as a deep sense of purpose.
This reflects the Socratic idea that a life of virtue and moderation is more fulfilling than a life driven by unchecked ambition or material success.
The Power of Interdependence: The film emphasizes the interconnectedness of individuals within a community. George’s life has a ripple effect, touching countless others in ways he doesn’t fully realize until the end of the film. This underscores the importance of collective well-being over individual gain.
Philosophical Resonance
Platonic Justice: George’s life embodies the Platonic concept of justice, where each individual contributes to the harmony of the whole. By prioritizing the needs of his community, George fulfills his role in a just and balanced society.
Socratic Virtue: George’s choices reflect the Socratic virtues of wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice. He demonstrates that true ambition is not about personal glory but about living a life of integrity and service.
Conclusion
It’s a Wonderful Life is indeed a powerful commentary on healthy ambition. George Bailey’s story shows that ambition, when guided by virtue and a sense of responsibility, can lead to profound personal and communal fulfillment. By contrasting George’s selfless ambition with Potter’s pleonexic greed, the film highlights the moral and social consequences of how we pursue our goals. In the end, George’s life is truly wonderful not because he achieved his original dreams, but because he chose a path of love, service, and justice—a path that aligns with the highest ideals of both Platonic philosophy and humanistic values.
Jannik: In my opinion, "It's a wonderful life" has a more negative view of ambition as such. George Bailey wants to go out in the world and achieve great things as an engineer. His ambitions are not unrelated to an idea of the greater good - but essentially they are dreams about above average recognition and a higher than average living standard and as such they contain elements of desire for glory and comfort. In other words, elements alien to virtue and, thus, alien to Socratic ethics.
DeepSeek: You raise an excellent and nuanced point! Your interpretation of It’s a Wonderful Life as presenting a more critical view of ambition, even in its seemingly noble forms, is compelling. Let’s delve deeper into this perspective and explore how George Bailey’s initial ambitions might indeed contain elements that are at odds with Socratic ethics, particularly in their focus on recognition, comfort, and personal glory.
George Bailey’s Ambitions: A Closer Look
Desire for Recognition and Glory: George’s dreams of becoming a famous engineer and building grand structures like skyscrapers and bridges are tied to a desire for recognition and distinction. He wants to leave a mark on the world, to be remembered for his achievements, and to escape the perceived smallness of Bedford Falls.
This desire for glory (kleos in Greek) is a recurring theme in classical thought, often seen as a driving force for human ambition. However, from a Socratic perspective, the pursuit of glory for its own sake can be problematic, as it prioritizes external validation over internal virtue.
Comfort and Material Success: George’s ambitions also include a desire for a higher standard of living, symbolized by his dreams of traveling the world and enjoying the fruits of his labor. While not inherently wrong, this focus on material comfort can be seen as a form of attachment to external goods, which Socrates and Plato often critique as distractions from the pursuit of wisdom and virtue.
Ambition and the Greater Good: While George’s dreams are not entirely selfish—he envisions building bridges and airports that serve the public—they are still centered on his personal achievements and legacy. This contrasts with the Socratic ideal of living a life dedicated to the common good, where individual ambitions are subordinated to the needs of the community.
The Film’s Critique of Ambition
Sacrifice and Redemption: The film suggests that George’s initial ambitions, while not inherently evil, are ultimately incomplete or misguided. His true redemption comes not from achieving his dreams of glory and comfort but from sacrificing those dreams for the sake of his family and community. This sacrifice is portrayed as morally superior and more fulfilling.
In this sense, the film critiques ambition that is overly focused on the self, even when it is framed in terms of the greater good.
The Danger of Self-Interest: George’s frustration and despair stem in part from his inability to achieve his personal ambitions. This highlights the potential dangers of tying one’s sense of worth and happiness to external achievements. The film suggests that such ambitions, while natural, can lead to dissatisfaction and moral compromise if not tempered by a deeper sense of purpose and responsibility.
The Virtue of Moderation: By choosing to stay in Bedford Falls and manage the Building and Loan, George embraces a life of moderation and service. This aligns with the Socratic ideal of sophrosyne (moderation) and the Platonic vision of a just life, where individual desires are harmonized with the needs of the community.
Socratic Ethics and Ambition
Virtue Over Glory: Socratic ethics prioritizes the cultivation of virtue (arete) over the pursuit of external goods like fame, wealth, or comfort. From this perspective, George’s initial ambitions, while not inherently wrong, are incomplete because they focus on achieving recognition and material success rather than developing moral character.
The Examined Life: Socrates famously declared that “the unexamined life is not worth living.” George’s journey can be seen as a process of examining his life and realizing that true fulfillment comes not from personal glory but from living virtuously and contributing to the well-being of others.
The Role of Community: In Socratic and Platonic thought, the individual is deeply connected to the community, and the good life is one that balances personal aspirations with communal responsibilities. George’s ultimate choice to prioritize his community over his personal ambitions reflects this ideal.
Conclusion
Your interpretation of It’s a Wonderful Life as presenting a more critical view of ambition is well-founded. The film does indeed suggest that ambition, even when framed in terms of the greater good, can be problematic if it is overly focused on personal recognition, comfort, or glory. George Bailey’s journey illustrates the tension between individual aspirations and communal responsibilities, ultimately advocating for a life of virtue, moderation, and service over one driven by external achievements.
In this way, the film aligns with Socratic ethics, which critiques the pursuit of external goods and emphasizes the importance of living a virtuous and examined life. George’s story serves as a powerful reminder that true fulfillment comes not from achieving personal glory but from living with integrity, compassion, and a commitment to the common good.
